Thoughts on Game Design

I suppose I should start this topic with a little background information about myself. I am currently in College and I am a Computer Science major. My school sadly only has one game design class, in which I was able to gain some experience leading a team and making some game design documents. In the end I was able to gain solid design experience but I am aware that we did not go in depth enough in design principles and mechanics as I would need to know attempting to get into the industry upon graduation.

What I have been doing since then is I have purchased any game design book that has been recommended to me as well as writing design documents for multiple games. I designed the game for that class and am also now in the midst of working on a game in a small three person group to gain more experience.

I have had the opportunity to speak with a designer in the past who told me to view any game I play more critically instead of just playing for fun. He made a point that I should be looking for any area which could have been improved upon or if removed would have really hurt the overall experience. To this point this has been the best advice I have been able to get and I would love to hear some advise from anyone at Irrational Games.

I am also aware that QA is great for getting into the industry as a designer. Multiple designers have made that clear ; while I have done some external beta testing they only result in surveys and forums for feedback. This sadly does not have the same impact as actually working in a studio testing and learning on the job.

After that long rant on to my question, what do you guys recommend for learning game design?
- Any books that you read which were really helpful?
- Is working on small teams and creating games the best way to gain experience to get into the industry?
- Beyond creating Game Design Documents what other documents or diagrams are involved in the day to do work which we aspiring designers could try to learn and become comfortable with?
- What programs are used day to day by designers in the field?

Any other insight would you all have would be great. I have noticed that many people who are members of this community are not only huge fans of Irrational Games but hoping to break into the industry as well. I'll apologize now too for making this topic so unnecessarily long and thanks in advance for any insight anyone has for all of us!

In case more voices=more likelyhood for an answer, I'm incredibly interested in this as well.

Unlike adesilva, I'm not a computer science guy. I'm entirely rooted in narrative tradition. However, I've written plenty of papers on narrative in game design--and I'd love to know where I could go to start learning basic stuff about game design from a more technical perspective.

There are so many hurdles for a neophyte like myself that I don't even know which language to focus on.

I hear that C++ is aging, but still preferred in many circles. Aside from that the shelves are lined with hundreds of books with dozens of languages promising to unlock the secret of game design. Adesilva himself might be able to help with some of my basic issues, but I think we both have the same questions beyond the basics.

I have talked with a few different developers and I will share a little bit of the knowledge I was able to attain. Mainly what I was given were some book choices to look at. The following are the books I was recommended:

- Universal Principles of Design by: William Lidell, Kritina Holden, Jill Butler (Finished thought it was really good, The Behemoth highly recommended it a second version was recently released but I have not looked into it yet)

- Challenges for Game Designers by: Brenda Brathwaite, Ian Schreiber (Currently reading this one, very in depth and I was told that it was very helpful especially for any design quizes you may get during the hiring process)

-The Ultimate Guide to Video Game Writing and Design by: Flint Dille, John Zuur Platten ( Writing is important in design and I was told this book would help. I plan on starting this one once I finish the above book)

- Fundamentals of Game Design (2nd Edition) by: Ernest Adams

- David Perry on Game Design: A Brainstorming ToolBox (Very highly recommended from multiple sources and excerpts have been made into Gamasutra articles frequently so you know its good. The book is over 1,000 pages and from what I have been told it is very focused and extremely helpful. I would have bought this book first but it was the most expensive and money was rather tight at the time. I am now trying to finish up the above books before I go onto this beast)

Hopefully those recommendations are helpful.

As far as C++ is considered it has been around for awhile but I do not see it going anywhere. Some Irrational employees would know better but I am sure they are using C++ in the development process. If you go to school to learn programming they will more than likely teach you Java ( I know some of my processes love it and refuse to use anything else) but I personally have never been the biggest fan even though the mobility of the platform certainly is nice.

If you are interested in learning some programming Java/C would probably be the your best bet. All you really need to do is understand concepts, if you can program you can pretty much do it in any language imo it is just a matter of learning syntax for a different language. Also for C it is not Object Oriented so it is different from C++ in that regard but it may be easier to start learning on as well. C and C++ are also pretty similar one you know C it isn't too bad to start doing C++.

I started out just as a programmer but have always loved design so I have been trying to round myself out a bit. I have taken some digital media classes as well to try and understand what everyones role is in the development cycle. I would certainly recommend doing that for anyone interested, I think it helps a lot especially for a designer if you know what everyones job really entails.

If you or anyone else for that matter has any questions I would be more than happy to impart whatever knowledge I have been able to acquire but I certainly have loads to learn myself as well (hence my original question haha). I have done a lot of work to learn and try to gain some experience but I have not been able to get the internship I have desperately been looking for so all my views and thoughts are still at the sort of outside looking in perspective. Everything sounds nice in theory but until really get down to working on something serious its not as valid (I have only made one game before and currently starting design of my second so still working on gaining experience as well).

Well either way I hope somewhere in that lengthy post was some info that can help you!

That's actually incredibly helpful.

I've got a little list of books I've been curious about and you actually have a couple of them in your list--making me feel safer about finally going and picking them up.

Your thoughts on Java kind of mirror a friend of mine who just finished his computer science degree. He said that it would be good to learn because it's the trendy mobile thing to know. But, when I said, "I don't care as much about being cutting edge as I do about being useful," he said to go with C++.

I haven't programmed since high school--back when we were still learning Pascal--so I'm really rusty. However, after years of subjective learning about problems with no answers (aka literary theory and writing as an art/craft) I'm actually looking forward to something that I can tackle with a certain level of concrete results. If I tell the computer to do something and my program works, I don't have to ask a peer if I've achieved my desired effect. It's amazing how much you start to miss questions with answers until you go to grad school in a wash of existentialism.

Anyway, thanks again, thumbs up!

haha just mentioning Pascal brings me back to high school as well. The path that you are taking is actually pretty funny because I am sort of doing the opposite. I have been programming and doing some design work since high school and have really been trying to improve my writing abilities lately. Writing is huge in design so if your interested in that you have a great foundation.

My dream job would be, for instance, working on Bioware RPGs. I start work on my masters Thesis--well right now technically, but my official thesis hours happen in Fall. When I graduate in December I'm not sure if I'll go on for my PhD and teach, get my MFA somewhere or switch my focus all together.

To say I'm interested in writing would be an understatement, obviously, since few are crazy enough to do post grad work in an area they only dabble in. Still, the more I learn about writing the less expertise I feel that I have. Maybe we're all dabblers until we die. Still, it's nice to imagine a scenario where my years of writing expertise finally pay off and get me a job in a field I don't hate.

As for people getting into writing--I wish you the best, but it can be a soul pounding experience. It's a cruel world with artists that are forced to play the role of critics for so long that they lose their kindness. I've reached those depths myself once or twice and I always feel awful about it. I wish you the best, but wear a mouth piece.

I certainly understand that, I have only started writing (on my own time) recently so I am sure it would seem rather elementary compared to anything you have done lol. I totally understand what you mean though the more I learn about programming, design, anything in life really the more you realize that you really do not know anything. In reality even the "experts" of the world don't know that much in the grand scheme of things they simply know more than the average person on a given topic.

It is certainly good to see your passion about writing, it is not often to see a person have true passion in anything. If your dream is to work on some western style RPGs you should certainly at least try to achieve the goal. Their is nothing worse in life than regret, I know that ever since I was 4-5 playing my cousins Atari that I wanted to create games and till this day I stand by that mindset. It seems that everyone works towards having that job they do not hate in life but only a select few ever really get it, even if you get that job their will still be days when you hate it as well. Either way good luck if you end up going for your PhD I have a friend who got his and I know how difficult it can be.

Hey adesilva,

At one point, everyone in the industry was in your shoes. It can be difficult to know where to even begin in trying to land a job making games. It sounds like you're off to a great start though. You definitely want to be consuming as much media on game creation as you can get your hands on. While the class you've taken will certainly go a long way, it's certainly not a requirement to have a degree in game creation (though that can help in some cases). It should also go without saying that playing as many games as you can get your hands on is key.

It's also true that QA is a fantastic way to get your foot in the door. It's a good crash course in development and can allow you a window into whether or not developing games is something you'd like to do as a career.

Beyond this, in my opinion, the absolute best thing for you to do right now is to get involved. Participate in open betas. Write a game review for a local or college newspaper. Perhaps most valuable of all, get modding! Pick up a copy of UT or Gears of War and start messing around with the Unreal editor. Unreal is one of the most commonly used engines out there. There are countless online tutorials on how to use the tools. I'm a huge fan of the video tutorials at 3dbuzz.com (they also made the tutorials that were included with the Collector's Edition of UT3).

Once you understand the basics of modding, build a really cool room or level. Or try to make a really cool combat that demonstrates a rad idea you've had kicking around in the back of your head. The bottom line is: get building! Getting involved in the modding scene is a great way to get a sense for what development can be like. It's also a great way to get your work seen, learn some great lessons and perhaps most importantly, get your work out there for others to see.

If you think you have the chops to make games, demonstrate your skills. The right amount of sweat is going to help you stand out from the crowd.

I hope this helps. I'd be happy to give you some more advice.

Best of luck and keep us posted on your journey!

First off thanks in advance for the response Bill it is greatly appreciated not only from myself for the direct response but I am sure it will be helpful to many other readers in the future.

It is always good to see that I am on the right track with what I am doing, I have made some reviews in the past and I am going to attempt to write some sort of review for every game that I play in the future. I have a website that I am in the process of creating which will include articles like this as well as any work I do in the future. I believe this may not only be helpful for myself to have a nice place to always find any work but also for anyone interested in what I have been doing.

I had heard from a few people in the industry that QA was a great way to break in so it is great to hear you confirm that!

It is actually very funny that you mention picking up UT to mess around with the Unreal Editor because I actually recently did that but forgot to even mention it in my original post ( It was getting pretty long anyway). I have taken a look at some tutorials online to help me get started with it ( with class I have sadly not had much time to focus on it but semester ends in a month ) but I also enjoy to have a book around to read.

Anyone that is also interested in the Unreal Editor the book that I purchased is: Mastering Unreal Technology, Volume I: Introduction to Level Design with Unreal Engine 3. I am only a chapter into the book but so far I am a big fan of how it is all set up. Very easy to understand and your able to immediately create a level which will have you feeling very excited to learn more. It can also be noted that if comes with an asset dvd so for all the levels you make in the book you do not ever need to worry about finding art to put in your levels. If I recall correctly the author of the book is associated with 3dbuzz.com.

Overall at this point I am mainly going to just try and continue to learn as many things as possible. With the semester coming to an end soon I am also trying to find a QA Job / Internship for the summer which I believe would be amazingly helpful towards the future. Just being in the environment should certainly be helpful ( wink wink Irrational I am still waiting on that day you announce that you are ready for some interns!)

Thanks Again Bill!

My pleasure.

The "Mastering Unreal Tech" series is fantastic. Yes, the writers are from 3dbuzz. Again, can't recommend that site enough.

If you ever get the time to create a map, be sure to share it with everyone on the forums. I'm sure everyone would love to see what you come up with. Same for your site. I'm always looking for a new game blog.

And for the record, I got my first job in the industry right here at Irrational as QA.

Your profile does not mention your occupation what do you do at Irrational? Still a member of the QA team?

Bill is our Design Director

If you are interested in learning more about Unreal, you can look into the Unreal Development Kit (UDK). It is pretty much the entire Unreal Engine 3, the same thing that many developers use to make their games. Epic provides some great tutorials and documentation.

One area of advice I give people starting with something like Unreal or any tech/tools is to start small. Allow yourself to prove your concepts out to completion or you will get frustrated. Start simple and as your skillset becomes greater increase the complexity of whatever you are working on. Don't attempt to make Halo or BioShock with your first map.

Oh wow he looked so young in his picture I never would have guessed. Congratulations for all your success, I suppose you really are a great person to follow advice from haha.

Thanks for the advice to smart small as well Collin, this is primarily why I would suggest the book I mentioned above because in each chapter they teach you a few new techniques / tools and the end result is another small map which is pretty fun to do.

Currently I am a bit hog tied behind my lack of modeling expertise (The book comes with assets too which is very helpful for this) but I will be taking a 3d Modeling class in Maya next semester so that should certainly help! I did wen't through the first two chapters of the book when I first got it about a month ago but mid terms and projects derailed it a bit after finals I am certainly going to start up again and I will be sure to keep everyone updated.

I wanted to thank Collin for the link and everyone for the advice.

I've been looking for a good place to get started and the Unreal Dev kit seems like a great start thanks mostly to versatility and enormous support from its community.

It's daunting, but exciting and I'd never even have realized it was free without these forums.

I think it's time to set up a Survivorman style shelter and camp out here for a while.

Andrew and Bill, I just ordered Mastering Unreal Tech Volume 1 from Amazon. Thanks again for the tip. Tell them to send you a commission.

Just so you know the UDK and the Unreal Editor that comes with Unreal Tournament are slightly different. You will probably want to use the editor from Unreal Tournament with the book because they go step by step through everything and some things may be differing in the UDK.

adesilva said:
Just so you know the UDK and the Unreal Editor that comes with Unreal Tournament are slightly different. You will probably want to use the editor from Unreal Tournament with the book because they go step by step through everything and some things may be differing in the UDK.

hmm now that you mention that Collin that probably is the best course of action. When I first got the book I did a little bit of research on if I should use the Editor or the UDK because it had recently been released at the time but most people said to stick to the editor. In reality as you are suggesting it is much more "future proof" to grab the UDK and work off that.

However I hope id will strike back with its id tech 5. It currently looks fantastic. I spent numerous hours messing with Unreal Engine and, well, it's total garbage, using some ancient BSP mechanics that were invented back in 1998. Epic is currently leading the tech market becuase they provide great support to their licensees, not because their tech is actually top notch. But I hope id will manage to compete with them here after they release Rage.

I clearly don't know enough about game design to comment on what or what isn't garbage. I do know that several of my favorite games last year used the Unreal Engine, so garbage is probably hyperbole. Then again, maybe my standards are low because I don't know how good it can really be.

Of course, I still own a Nintendo DS which runs games using a style and design paradigm that is relatively ancient as well and I rarely feel those are garbage either. Again, a lack of insider knowledge makes it hard to offer a concrete response--although instinct and aesthetic impulse suggests, again, hyperbole or bias.

bono said:
However I hope id will strike back with its id tech 5. It currently looks fantastic. I spent numerous hours messing with Unreal Engine and, well, it's total garbage, using some ancient BSP mechanics that were invented back in 1998. Epic is currently leading the tech market becuase they provide great support to their licensees, not because their tech is actually top notch. But I hope id will manage to compete with them here after they release Rage.

I don't think its fair to say its garbage. While I'm sure id tech 5 will show us some amazing things, Unreal Engine is very widely used in the industry so for the purposes stated in this topic it is very useful for those interested in breaking into the industry to get a feel for using a tool like the UDK. Also as far as I know id isn't releasing their tools/editor anytime soon. I did however read that Crytek will be releasing a free version of their engine soon.

aliborio said:
I don't think its fair to say its garbage. While I'm sure id tech 5 will show us some amazing things, Unreal Engine is very widely used in the industry so for the purposes stated in this topic it is very useful for those interested in breaking into the industry to get a feel for using a tool like the UDK. Also as far as I know id isn't releasing their tools/editor anytime soon. I did however read that Crytek will be releasing a free version of their engine soon.

That's absolutely true. However, I simply don't like Unreal engine. Put simple, Unreal Engine 2 is Unreal Engine 1 (with the same very limited BSP possibilities) + static meshes. Unreal Engine 3 is Unreal Engine 2 + physics and shaders. Epic is constantly pushing forward the technology that is actually quite ancient by design. I'm not a programmer myself, it's just what I feel from my own experience of messing with different versions of UnrealEd.

On the contrary, I remember how pleasantly surprised I was when I opened up Doom 3 Radiant. Though I hate Radiant interface (UnrealEd is probably 137596 times more user friendly than Radiant), Doom 3/id tech 4 was a real step forward. The engine saw basically no differences between BSP and static meshes (you could build very intricate, extremely highly detailed terrain with brushes), it had true real-time lighting based on shadow volumes, it had amazing textures, and it was optimized flawlessly so it could give me decent framerate on my then-ancient machine.

I personally prefer Radiant over UnrealED. It seems so straight forward compared to UnrealED. However, I think UnrealED has more features built in, and is a possible reason for it being more complicated.

As for the UDK and the Unreal Engine being different: only a small amount is different. It has the same feel, and for the most part, the same features. So I would highly recommend downloading UDK and getting involved in it.

@adesilva I've seen people get hired in the industry just for simply having experience modding, and designing custom content. They didn't even go to college. In fact, now that I think of it, one of the guys at Infinity Ward left during the middle of his attendance at Fullsail because of his previous experience. So if you don't have the availability of college experience, modding is the next best thing.

NomarDll769 said:
@adesilva I've seen people get hired in the industry just for simply having experience modding, and designing custom content. They didn't even go to college. In fact, now that I think of it, one of the guys at Infinity Ward left during the middle of his attendance at Fullsail because of his previous experience. So if you don't have the availability of college experience, modding is the next best thing.

Keep in mind that this was probably at a time when studios were hiring left and right. Thats not happening so much now.

Granted modding is a great way to showcase your talents but if you've put the time in for school, its pretty guaranteed you'll get hired over the other guy who doesn't have a degree that pertains to the job in question.

I agree, I remember a few years ago it seemed that developers did not care so much if you had a college degree. Now if you look at requirements to apply most are looking for a bachelors. I certainly do believe that my Computer Science degree will help me in the long run.

This is especially true on the creative end (from what I've observed just looking at job listings from site to site). A lot of the game writing/creative lead jobs want degrees in English now and sometimes years of professional writing credits on top of that.

As a gamer I'm thrilled to see QC trending up across the board in my primary hobby. As a job seeker I wish they'd lower their standards and let me write the next E.T. game for them.

Yea from every job in the industry I've taken a look at they usually want a degree and at least 2 years of experience or at least 2 games shipped. Some of the bigger studios ask for experience on AAA titles too.

aliborio said:
Yea from every job in the industry I've taken a look at they usually want a degree and at least 2 years of experience or at least 2 games shipped. Some of the bigger studios ask for experience on AAA titles too.

Exactly, thats the part that becomes so difficult. The degree is the easy part, it is the experience that is difficult. If even entry level jobs are looking for experience ( I have seen it range from 6 months to 1 year for lower level positions) how are we expected to get this experience lol. I know that it is a difficult field to get into but that seems rather harsh. 6 months does not seem too bad, it is essentially just requiring some sort of internship which most fields also require.

This is by far my favorite topic on the forums--I hope there isn't some sort of social construct violation going on as we've hijacked one of the "Ask Irrational" questions and made it into a vibrant topic.

I have a fiction portfolio due on May 5th, but once my summer starts I think we should all think about an Irrational Forums independent game competition or something. If nothing else it would force me to do some work scripting--although I might end up writing a Zork style adventure.

Haha thats true but Irrational employees have also been involved so I don't think it is much of a problem. I am also its creator and I have no problems with it Its enjoyable to talk about the industry either way so I don't think they will mind.